Comments on: The Chaos Theory http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/ Malice in wonderland. Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:34:09 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structured and sure or chaotic and competent? | saishoguild.com http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-832 Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structured and sure or chaotic and competent? | saishoguild.com Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:33:07 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-832 [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...] [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...]

]]> By: World of Warcraft Gold, WoW Gold, Accounts & Powerleveling » Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structured and sure or chaotic and competent? http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-831 World of Warcraft Gold, WoW Gold, Accounts & Powerleveling » Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structured and sure or chaotic and competent? Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:01:37 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-831 [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...] [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...]

]]> By: Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structured and certain or chaotic and competent? | Warcraft-News.com http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-825 Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structured and certain or chaotic and competent? | Warcraft-News.com Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:48:10 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-825 [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...] [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...]

]]> By: Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structed and certain or chaotic and competent? | Warcraft-News.com http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-824 Breakfast Topic: Is your guild structed and certain or chaotic and competent? | Warcraft-News.com Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:10:36 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-824 [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...] [...] question in the title comes straight from this very interesting post on Kinless’ blog. He and his wife are in different guilds. His guild has a raiding calendar and they adhere to it [...]

]]> By: Kinzlayer http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-821 Kinzlayer Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:14:19 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-821 From my past experiences most guilds have to become a bit more structured once they enter SSC/TK, if they weren't before, since managing 25+ people for those long nights are a pain. With Gruul and Mag, the trash are easy and fast but in SSC/TK there are more of them and it's a bit tougher if you got people going and coming. From my past experiences most guilds have to become a bit more structured once they enter SSC/TK, if they weren’t before, since managing 25+ people for those long nights are a pain. With Gruul and Mag, the trash are easy and fast but in SSC/TK there are more of them and it’s a bit tougher if you got people going and coming.

]]> By: Skindancer http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-820 Skindancer Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:57:25 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-820 Heya Blackhoof. A nice, thought-provoking post. It's something that lots of people ponder. I know Sistajuju and I have discussed this topic many times as we watch friends running Gruul's, typically in some Frankenstein patchwork alliance or a guild that is essentially a semi-organized PUG. ;) I found the article by Ciderhelm that Rohan linked to be very interesting. I am sure it will have a positive influence on our scheduling choices. As for the discussion, well, as one of the people that was heavily involved in creating our standards, I have a lot to say on this topic, far too much for a comment. So, I made it today's topic on my blog: http://altosis.blogspot.com/2008/01/sustainable-progress.html Thanks for the discussion. A little reaffirmation of principles every now and then is a good thing. :) Heya Blackhoof. A nice, thought-provoking post. It’s something that lots of people ponder. I know Sistajuju and I have discussed this topic many times as we watch friends running Gruul’s, typically in some Frankenstein patchwork alliance or a guild that is essentially a semi-organized PUG. ;)

I found the article by Ciderhelm that Rohan linked to be very interesting. I am sure it will have a positive influence on our scheduling choices.

As for the discussion, well, as one of the people that was heavily involved in creating our standards, I have a lot to say on this topic, far too much for a comment. So, I made it today’s topic on my blog:

http://altosis.blogspot.com/2008/01/sustainable-progress.html

Thanks for the discussion. A little reaffirmation of principles every now and then is a good thing. :)

]]> By: Kinless http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-819 Kinless Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:10:32 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-819 Interesting article there Rohan, thanks. Interesting article there Rohan, thanks.

]]> By: Rohan http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-818 Rohan Sat, 26 Jan 2008 03:57:29 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-818 Kinless, the elite guilds view time fundamentally differently than the other guilds. They're aggressive about new content like your wife's guild is, but they are more structured. Read this article by Ciderhelm: <a href="http://www.tankspot.com/forums/guild-raid-management/32593-time-management-raiding-guilds.html" rel="nofollow">Time Management for Raiding Guilds</a> Kinless, the elite guilds view time fundamentally differently than the other guilds. They’re aggressive about new content like your wife’s guild is, but they are more structured.

Read this article by Ciderhelm: Time Management for Raiding Guilds

]]> By: Anonymous http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-817 Anonymous Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:38:07 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-817 What to say? Since I had a had in creating those "strict" requirements, there was a purpose to them. The initial six runs with the guild are really to see if the player wants to stay in the guild--not us deciding to keep them; we have yet to actually kick anyone out for performance or other reasons of that nature. As to DS3 and Heroic Runs--you can't believe the number of times we went on PuG Karazhan runs with people with level 65 quest greens and blues, who were handheld to get the Kara key, and getting past Moroes was luck. We went with one group four weeks in a row and hung at either Moroes or Opera for hours . . . So, we decided that we wouldn't every wasted 10 people's time for 6 or more hours because someone didn't know how to play their class or have appropriate gear. So, we made the requirement for Heroics and DS3--and they we implemented a schedule and system to help people get the DS3 gear and Heroics done. The AR gear was needed--we simply didn't have people who knew how to play their class well enough to put out enough DPS to down the flares and not wipe out our healers mana on the Curator. The fact that it makes Ikiss in Heroic Sethekk very doable is a bonus . . . We have since relaxed the AR gear requirement--the majority of our people have gotten nice gear, are doing well on DPS, and we don't believe we will have the troubles we had with the Curator anymore. At heart--we don't take a group of experienced raiders and go raid. We are building a guild of raiders where we are all "family" and know each other; the majority have never raided, and most of our folks never went on anything but PuG hell instance runs. In my opinion, when we do the 25-mans, we will own Gruul and Mag and put them on Farm in the first week or two and begin knocking out SSC and TK; I believe preparation, working with our folks, and the standards will show their merit. Or not, and people will leave and move on . . . as they have done. There is no one size fits all guild! Happy hunting and good luck to all! What to say? Since I had a had in creating those “strict” requirements, there was a purpose to them. The initial six runs with the guild are really to see if the player wants to stay in the guild–not us deciding to keep them; we have yet to actually kick anyone out for performance or other reasons of that nature.

As to DS3 and Heroic Runs–you can’t believe the number of times we went on PuG Karazhan runs with people with level 65 quest greens and blues, who were handheld to get the Kara key, and getting past Moroes was luck. We went with one group four weeks in a row and hung at either Moroes or Opera for hours . . .

So, we decided that we wouldn’t every wasted 10 people’s time for 6 or more hours because someone didn’t know how to play their class or have appropriate gear. So, we made the requirement for Heroics and DS3–and they we implemented a schedule and system to help people get the DS3 gear and Heroics done.

The AR gear was needed–we simply didn’t have people who knew how to play their class well enough to put out enough DPS to down the flares and not wipe out our healers mana on the Curator. The fact that it makes Ikiss in Heroic Sethekk very doable is a bonus . . .

We have since relaxed the AR gear requirement–the majority of our people have gotten nice gear, are doing well on DPS, and we don’t believe we will have the troubles we had with the Curator anymore.

At heart–we don’t take a group of experienced raiders and go raid. We are building a guild of raiders where we are all “family” and know each other; the majority have never raided, and most of our folks never went on anything but PuG hell instance runs.

In my opinion, when we do the 25-mans, we will own Gruul and Mag and put them on Farm in the first week or two and begin knocking out SSC and TK; I believe preparation, working with our folks, and the standards will show their merit.

Or not, and people will leave and move on . . . as they have done. There is no one size fits all guild!

Happy hunting and good luck to all!

]]> By: Mindkiller http://kinless.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/the-chaos-theory/#comment-815 Mindkiller Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:43:31 +0000 http://kinless.wordpress.com/?p=476#comment-815 Personally my guild only had scheduled Kara religiously for 2 months up untill 2 weeks ago. Now it is still 2 groups, with the 2nd group having been started at the begining of regular scheduled Kara. They stopped scheduling it and just picked a group out of who was on and the remainder going to group 2. After 2 months of scheduled raid there were over 25 members with a decne tamount of KAra and heroic gear. 3 weeks ago we moved HKM and Gruul to farm after only beating on him for a month. Once you get to the Gruul kill stage it becomes plausible to attack TK or ZA. Those how ever require people to pay attention a lot more and movement seems to be the Key in T5 encounters. Our guild headed into TK last Friday for a shot at Void Reaver. We basicly sailed throguh the trash with minimal deaths and only on wipe just before Void due to a lucky crit. 3rd attempt we downed Void on our first TK and First Void try. This week after blasting through Gruul (Downed him in an amazing 6.5 minutes) our ZA team finsihed our first clear there. SSC is in our sights too but focus will prolly be on ZA and TK with an eye to Mags. As to our structure: We shcedule the 25 mans we do and if possible, plan out the Kara teams' days so we dont have everyone raiding. The ZA runs are usually impromtue after a 25 man or done instead of a Kara that night. Doesnt always go the way planned but being flexible is what got us the Void down. We adapt to what we feel like doing and it always seems to work. It might help that the guild has been together for over a year and has weathered several dry spells and grumpy feelings. Last time some one looked we were in the top 10 on our server for progression. might be hgher/lower since it was last checked before Void was kilt and ZA cleared. Mindkiller/ Gawdsicon Honor- Duskwood Personally my guild only had scheduled Kara religiously for 2 months up untill 2 weeks ago. Now it is still 2 groups, with the 2nd group having been started at the begining of regular scheduled Kara. They stopped scheduling it and just picked a group out of who was on and the remainder going to group 2. After 2 months of scheduled raid there were over 25 members with a decne tamount of KAra and heroic gear. 3 weeks ago we moved HKM and Gruul to farm after only beating on him for a month. Once you get to the Gruul kill stage it becomes plausible to attack TK or ZA. Those how ever require people to pay attention a lot more and movement seems to be the Key in T5 encounters. Our guild headed into TK last Friday for a shot at Void Reaver. We basicly sailed throguh the trash with minimal deaths and only on wipe just before Void due to a lucky crit. 3rd attempt we downed Void on our first TK and First Void try. This week after blasting through Gruul (Downed him in an amazing 6.5 minutes) our ZA team finsihed our first clear there. SSC is in our sights too but focus will prolly be on ZA and TK with an eye to Mags.

As to our structure: We shcedule the 25 mans we do and if possible, plan out the Kara teams’ days so we dont have everyone raiding. The ZA runs are usually impromtue after a 25 man or done instead of a Kara that night. Doesnt always go the way planned but being flexible is what got us the Void down. We adapt to what we feel like doing and it always seems to work. It might help that the guild has been together for over a year and has weathered several dry spells and grumpy feelings.
Last time some one looked we were in the top 10 on our server for progression. might be hgher/lower since it was last checked before Void was kilt and ZA cleared.

Mindkiller/
Gawdsicon

Honor- Duskwood

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